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(<- Previous Report) April 30th (Next Report->)
SUNY Binghamton Presentation
"When I was talking and looking into their faces, they looked like blind ghosts. (Chinese students) The things that they said, they were told to say. I know this because I once believed the communist, too. And you know what else, I came to America to get help for my country and those Americans in the audience did nothing! They sat there like scared rabbits. Scared in their own country."
-Dadon commenting on the meeting between the marchers and the Chinese students of SUNY Binghamton.
Four days before a scheduled presentation at SUNY Binghamton on April 30, the walkers learned of a planned counter protest by The Chinese Student Association. The students, claiming that the "March for Tibet's Independence" was spreading "splittist propaganda," convinced Amnesty International (AI), the host sponsor, to allow them a chance to refute the information being presented by walkers. The marchers talked this over and very quickly decided to welcome the Chinese students and create an atmosphere in which a calm and productive dialogue could occur.
The walkers prepared presentation was entitled "Mickey, Mao, and Me: It's No Tibetan Fairy Tale," but in order to comply with AI's apolitical philosophy, the marchers agreed to revise their talk and adhere to the issues of human rights violations rather than Tibet's political situation. Beginning at approximately 6:45 PM, 20-30 Chinese protesters gathered outside the engineering building of SUNY Binghamton in anticipation of the 7:00 PM arrival of the marchers. The Binghamton Chinese Student Association passed out two flyers, one entitled "Tibet Has NEVER Been an Independent State" the other not titled but a compare and contrast-type flyer showing a skull and crossbones next to a list of "Human Rights Situation in Tibet under the Dalai Lama's Rule," and a smiley face next to a list of "Human Rights Situation in Today's Tibet." Also distributed were two booklets published by New Star Publishers of Beijing, one entitled "Potala" which described improvements in education in the Tibetan region, and the other "TIBET: From 1951 to 1991," detailing The PRC policy in Tibet and refuting common arguments regarding human rights in Tibet as well as Tibet's claim of historical independence. The Chinese protesters carried signs which read, "Norbu=Liar," "Dalai is a Liar," "Down with Separatism," "Tibet is a Part of China," etc. A few protesters were present in support of Tibet, including one Taiwanese student.
When the marchers got out of their Recreational Vehicle, the Chinese protesters began a round of slogan shouting. The marchers calmly walked inside the building, but moments later a few of the Tibetans came back out waving the Tibetan flag furiously in front of the Chinese protesters and shouting, "FREE TIBET!" Just as furiously, the Chinese shouted back and shook their signs and circled around the Tibetans. Then all present entered the auditorium in a calm fashion and the program began.
To the best of our knowledge, never before has such a large scale PRC counter protest against Tibet supporters occurred in North America and never before has a delegation of Tibetans and Tibet supporters met with a group of Chinese students and discussed the issues pertaining to Tibet and China. Because this was a tremendous learning experience for the walkers, and we also believe, for the Chinese students, we think it is extremely important to share highlights from this encounter. What follows is a description of the information that was presented and much of the dialogue which occurred.
Elizabeth Stasiak
Amnesty International representative SUNY Binghamton
"Amnesty International's sponsored speakers are the marchers for Tibet's Independence. Although they do have personal political opinions about the status of Tibet they are here tonight as educators on the issue of human rights not as politicians. AI takes no position on the status of Tibet. Its concerns rest with the authorities' denial of free speech and association, and a persistent pattern of gross violation of other fundamental human rights. In order to come to a full understanding of these issues it is necessary for the current political situation and conflict in Tibet to be addressed this evening. However, the focus of this presentation is human rights conditions and not the political dispute in Tibet. Any opinions expressed by the speakers or audience members tonight are not those of Amnesty International. After the presentation of the walkers has ended, so to has Amnesty International's sponsorship of this event. However, this weekend I met with members of the campus community who have an opposing view from our presenters and wish to speak tonight. Because Amnesty International has limited knowledge of the information these speakers wish to present tonight and it may conflict with Amnesty International's tenets, for these reasons AI is unable to sponsor a question and answer segment since it is obvious from my conversation with these individuals and the nature of the protest this evening that this event and the audience will have a clearly political agenda. However, both groups of speakers have agreed to participate in a question and answer period, and It is essential that you remember that any additional participation or discussion is at the speakers discretion and that no one at that point will be speaking as representatives of Amnesty International.
In closing I would like to thank the members of Amnesty International, and those of you who helped in the advertising and planning of this event. Especially, those who have worked very hard the last few days to ensure that posters continued to be hung around campus as quickly as they were torn down by a certain group of individuals who clearly do not support freedom of speech or University policy."
Julie Crow
Treasurer ITIM, Logistical Coordinator March for Tibet's
Independence
"Good evening everybody. My name is Julie Crow. I am from Indianapolis and I am the coordinator of the 1997 March for Tibet's (pause) something. Something that I'm not really supposed to be talking about. We have been asked that because this is an Amnesty International sponsored event not to talk about the issue of whether or not Tibet is an occupied country, so we won't talk about that.
It's really exciting to see the turn out for this meeting and I welcome on behalf of the walkers and the International Tibet Independence Movement the people with opposing points of view. I welcome you to the United States where we live in democracy and we have dialogue and discussion of issues and we have freedom of speech. I encourage all of you to take advantage of our freedom to assemble and discuss our opposing views and our right to question our government's policies and I hope that you learn something about democracy by being here. I think that what we're doing here is practicing democracy and dialogue. We are not afraid of the Chinese people here. Our group is not anti-Chinese at all. We're not anti-Communist. We are in support of human rights, truth and justice. Everyone is welcome here and I hope we have a lively discussion after the presentation. I hope that everyone can remain calm in the spirit of equanimity and out of respect for each other as human beings.
At this point, a viewing of the film 'Satya: A Payer for the Enemy' took place and then Julie Crow returned to the podium and gave a talk that highlighted the following:
- demonstration of a stun baton and explanation of how this is used as a form of torture
- reading of a testimony of a Tibetan Buddhist nun who spent 6 years in Drapchi Prison. The testimony included the description of various forms of torture used by the prison guards
- presentation of a photograph of Palden Gyatso, a Tibetan Buddhist Monk and former Chinese prisoner of 33 years, demonstrating how an electric cattle prod was used in his mouth
- telling of the imprisonment of Ngawang Choephel, Tibetan Fullbright scholar sentenced to 17 years in Chinese prison
- telling of the disappearance of Gendhun Choekyi Nyima, The 11th Panchen Lama of Tibet
- explanation of forced sterilization, and involuntary abortion
Dadon Dawadolma
Marcher for Tibet's Independence, Tibetan Pop Singer
DADON: Hello everybody. Thank you so much for coming tonight. Also, my friends, Chinese students. I think you need to know about something that you don't know about. What is really going on in Tibet.
My name is Dadon. "****speaking Chinese"
CHINESE STUDENT:
DADON: Yes I know.
CHINESE STUDENT:
DADON: He said there are some Chinese students come here not supporting us, and she said she is supporting us and we have different friends, so welcome. We can talk about this.
I was born ten years after Chinese took over Tibet and I went to Chinese school because I had to. If you don't speak Chinese you can not get job, and so we feel that because of this it is important to learn Chinese. There are many Chinese schools that are built in Tibet. So when I was young I studied Chinese language and I really totally believed the Communist so much. I loved it so much at that time.
In 1980 I went to Beijing national school for five years to study music. During my study there as elementary student and my Chinese classmates, most of them, they didn't know much about Tibet. They were afraid of us. They treat us differently. They think Tibetans are dirty and ugly and killing people. So they treat me pretty bad and they make me feel that I am different than Chinese people because I come from Tibet. Different, dirty, stupid. (Dadon repeats these words in Chinese)
MURMURING IN THE AUDIENCE
DADON: This is true. I feel it
CHINESE STUDENT: This is not true!
CHINESE STUDENT: If you don't want to listen you can get out! You can express your opinion later. This is a fair game. We can express our opinion later.
MUCH CHINESE CHATTER
FEMALE CHINESE STUDENT: We want the truth!
MALE CHINESE STUDENT: It's an act! It's a another political act!
TIBETAN VOICE: Quiet! Keep quiet! We don't have power! Be shamed!
DADON: After I studied and I went back home I feel shame because I forgot most Tibetan. I can speak so well Chinese language. While I'm in China and I'm treated different I feel like I am Tibetan, but when I go back Tibet and many things I forgot and I can't speak Tibetan anymore and I feel bad. I feel shame. Then I start to realize what has happened.
When I was about 7 or 8 years old my parents send me to Chinese school to learn Chinese language. My classmates are mostly Chinese students. The teacher is talking Chinese language and I don't understand. I was in a class and supposed to be listening to what the teacher was talking about, but I don't understand. I look at the book and there was two pictures. I now realize that the pictures were Stalin and Lenin and that the teacher was teaching about these men. I was getting so bored and I used a pencil to draw a mustache on their faces. Later my teacher found out and they left me standing on a table. Let all the classmates laughing at me, yelling at me, and spitting at me. At that time I was a girl, and from that day on I just...so afraid. Lost trust. Because I opened my heart just like the blue skies of Tibet. Open heart go to school, and the situation I had, people doing this kind of thing to me. It really hurts, and I have no trust from that day. I keep my heart closed. If I want to love I won't love. This is the kind of thing that happened to me.
I graduate school and come back to Tibet. At that time my mind was sincerity for the communist. My good heart believe that so much. I went back to Tibet. I was working in a dance group. We had orders from the government in Beijing says the dance group has to be traveling to visit army bases. We did and I was the youngest member of that group. The soldiers in Tibet, they have the best food, the best drink, wine, in those armies. Those soldiers are having good life. That night we showed a performance, and we dance and sing. Now I feel stupid, but at that time I show honestly how they liberated us. Thank you! We sing best and dance best. Then we have big party after. What do they do? They bring the best food for us. We so happy. Wow. Nice. Then our boss says, "Well girls, it's time that you serve to the soldiers! Get the wine to each of them."
CHINESE STUDENTS LAUGHING
DADON: Yea, this is true!
Then we have to say, "Thank you for coming to Tibet to liberate us. Please drink three times." Then I looked outside the window. There are many Tibetan children who are looking inside the window for food. They are dressing so poor. They don't have enough food and they are our people. Then I start wondering what is it. The Chinese soldiers come to Tibet to liberate us. To change our life for the good life. I used to believe that so much, but in fact, in front of my eyes, what is going on? I start to wonder.
In 1987, the first demonstration, my good friends are arrested. They are tortured. I went to jail and I looked at their face. It is true! I looked at them and I was sad. I cried. That night I went back home and I watch TV. On the TV they talking totally different way. So I am wondering what is that. I'm losing trust and I need to know. It does not feel good because you used to believed so much, but that thing keep hitting you and the people you love. Then I start to realize.
The second demonstration they fired the gun. In front of my eyes this happened and they are still lying. Many friends I know, they die. This is true. You can not lie.
As a Tibetan young person I must do something for myself. For my next generation. For my son. I won't let the same kind of sadness happen to my son. I can't let this kind of sadness happen to any of you! Any of us. We have the right to stand. We can not be treated like an animal, be killed at any time. So, as a Tibetan young person, I am standing up today and I am talking today, and I am singing today for the rights. I don't have to lie. There is no reason to lie. I could have the good life in China if I lie. Say how good communist. Close my eyes. One eye closed. One eye open. They would pay me good money, but I can't because I am human. I have feeling. I can not see those people be killed, be tortured and then I have good life.
So I sing to send the message. I am hear today knocking on all of your doors to stand by for the rights. To help the Tibetan people. Don't feel like you can do nothing. At least talk to your friends. Tell them the story because the government is so strong and they never tell the truth. But we are lucky that we are in America. We have so much information we can get and there is no reason to lie.
And I have little son. This is my younger son. I have a five year old son. If you are right...why you keep my son! Won't let him be with his mother. Why is that! Is that the government you believe so much? What if you are separated from your mother? Won't let you see each other. What are you feeling about it? He is only five years old! He needs his Mother! He needs his brother! He needs his whole family be together! Don't you feel shame about it? If you feel your government is good.
I miss him so much. And I know that today I am talking about this and it make worse situation for him, but if I don't talk about it there may be another many millions families going to have same situation as me. That is why I'm here talking to you and I think that is enough. Thank you very much.
At this point Elizabeth Stasiak of Amnesty International concludes the program and prepares to open the floor for discussion but is interrupted.
CHINESE STUDENT: OK you guys, how many of you believe it? It's lies! That lady...
People in the audience begin clapping and drown out his voice. Clapping ends and he continues, "Let me tell you. If you are a good mother you should not bring your child here. It's not good."
Many people in the audience protest this statement and a Chinese student who seemed to represent the group steps in and says, "Can everybody just take a deep breath and calm down. As an opposing opinion&emdash;it is my personal opinion, I'm not representing anybody, just myself&emdash;I was very moved by the lady there and her story and the movie, but I just feel a few things that might oppose their opinions saying independence because I personally feel like the regime of The Dalai Lama himself is pretty much like medieval church things. He is not a public elected official. He is a reincarnate and I just don't see the democracy elements in there.
I feel there are two bad things that I'm supposed to say, The Dalai Lama is not a democratic elected official or Chinese government. I don't see too good, too bad on both side in any aspect, so what I am thinking is a little bit alternative way saying economic development. Nobody likes that, nobody likes money, I know that, but I think economics development takes up a lot of peoples thinking. For instance, in the 60's it's not just sex and liberty, it's not drugs. I think underlying that there is a movement about what people felt. Something about economics and development opened peoples view of the world of what they were thinking before. Lets say during the 2nd world war would think the Germany is bad people, Japanese are bad people, lets kill them all or they kill us. But later on, during the 60's, we realize that we are all human beings and have similarities. We all loving. We all hating. So we realize how important human rights. So in this case, Tibet, I personally say lets get some economic development. As the people get more freedom to prosper themselves they also can prosper spiritually, and they can choose the way they want it and at that time it's more appropriate time for people to choose what kind of system they would like.
You might know of some underlying change in China. You might believe or not, but I personally I feel changing going on there and a tremendous opportunity there and I love that and that all I can say. Thank you for the time.
"Excuse me sir. First, I am from London and I am here to get a Ph.D. in economics and I have been interested in Tibet since I was fourteen. That has been seven years now. I just came back from Washington DC where I met with His Holiness The Dalai Lama and the President of the Tibetan Government-in-exile. I would like to correct you. The Dalai Lama is no longer the political leader. They have a president and a government in exile which is totally democratic. The Dalai Lama is the spiritual head which the Tibetan people love. Secondly, economically, what China is doing to Tibet is very interesting. Get the Tibetan people down, because the Chinese people are actually getting benefits, economic benefits, to move into Tibet. They get better salaries. This is very interesting, uranium is the main thing there which is need for nuclear power against Russia, today it is a good relationship, but in the 50's and 60's there was a lot of tension there, and they are getting the uranium by exploiting Tibet. Also, the flooding in Bangladesh is because of the deforestation of Tibet. This economic growth that you are talking about is destroying the whole Indian sub continent. This is not economic growth but pure exploitation. And one more thing, there is enormous political oppression. Personally, I don't know if Tibet can go back to the Tibetan people, but I know that what China is doing, I know that what His Holiness The Dalai Lama is asking for, is that they shouldn't rape women, they shouldn't kill monks and nuns, and they are doing nothing for culture. In DC I was sitting in on the hearings on Capitol Hill and Senator Gilman, Chairman of the International Relations hearings, he said that this is a pure invasion and the only reason Clinton just dropped in on the meeting with Gore&emdash;this was totally planned, of course&emdash;was because the Chinese threaten retaliation against Capitol Hill and they don't want that right now because Clinton makes a lot of money for his country by being nice to China.
I think I want to say something. You see when when she was in Tibet I was in Tibet too. First of all, between 1962 and 1977, during this era, that's the truth, not only in Tibet but in China also we lost our human rights. I can not say 100% she is wrong, but I can say some truth because I stayed there several years myself. Somebody once asked me why you went there. That's good question. After the Cultural Revolution the Chinese government changed because they realized in whole China, not only the Tibet people, everywhere we are poor. So I went there because the government realized that we need to send high tech people to the poor place. I went there to work. I never got treated like she says. I cook myself. I can tell the situation, I was there, the food, I can tell the story that in China the food supply was very bad. At that time when I went there and I worked hard, day and night. The only purpose we want to rebuild Tibet because Tibet was very poor and China too. I remember 1984 until 1987 the China government give Tibet millions of dollars, but in the internal we never got that kind of money. We helped Tibet rebuild like Lhasa Holiday Inn, Tibet hotel, everything. I think Chinese government treat the Chinese people and Tibetan like family. A member of our big family. They earn the money like more than me. I know where the money comes from, the central government, a lot of money. We criticize government, why? They get more money than me, but we are big family, we are poor, we try hard. At that time I make like 200 the Tibet person, same position make like 300 400. I tell the truth. You believe or not.
Also we have birth control in all of China, but in Tibet not. That is why I don't want to criticize you personally, everybody has a different story, but I just tell what I see. Another thing is in Tibet the medical care is free, but for us in internal area the people now still can not pay their money to go to hospital.
Actually, I worked very hard. I had to cook for myself. I'll tell you something, I could not get vegetable, why? because in Tibet they have different habit, different , different, well we eat the same but I never saw like that, the children watching in the window, but actually this is true in China, the soldier have the supply for themselves. So in Beijing the same thing happens, not only in Tibet.
DADON: You said that Tibetan people are poor and I don't know that all the Tibetan people are poor, but my Grandparents told me that we are pretty good life before the Chinese people come. We have lots of food. We have enough, and it can not be compared to money. We pass from many generations the jewelry. Everything. And we have the temple, right, the Monastery, the damage, they bring the thousand years Buddha into China, and how much does that cost? They can't compare. And now they Chinese give Tibet money. The Chinese government always says how much money they spend on Tibet and I know they build Tibetan school in Beijing and different places and those money from the project from Chinese government to Tibet. Do you know that the money comes from the government into Tibet then goes back to China. Did you know that? They build Tibetan school and bring thousand of Tibetan young children, right now, today, to China to study.
CHINESE STUDENT: Yes we are a big family and we help each other.
DADON: Yea, my teacher he is Chinese and I love him so much. I didn't come here say Chinese people are bad. I have lots of Chinese friends. Yes, we are family. Chinese people and Tibetan people are family with all the world. No matter what color we are friends. But we are here to talk human rights.
CHINESE STUDENT: You are the one who said that China treat the Tibet different. I want to know because the Chinese government treats everybody the same.
DADON: We are here to talk about the government. We did not say the Chinese people. You have to realize we love Chinese people, and Chinese people are our friends.
CHINESE STUDENT: You are Chinese people.
DADON: Me? I am not. I am Tibetan. You are Chinese. I am talking Tibetan language you are talking Chinese language. We have different writing, different sound, totally different culture
CHINESE STUDENT: About the language. I hope that's not the reason why...
CHINESE STUDENT: Tibetan is Chinese. Chinese is Tibetan.
Dadon cuts him off, and asks him in Tibetan, "Do you understand me?" and then in Chinese tells him, "You do not understand my language."
CHINESE STUDENT: OK could you tell them why you were rich before the liberation? Why the other people where poor in Tibet. You know you know why. You should let the Americans know about the slavery system.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Can we have a moderator, please?
TENZIN LATSOG: Excuse me! I believe Tibet is poor because the Chinese take Tibetan property back to the Chinese government!
CHINESE STUDENT: Liar! Lair! That's False!
Moderator steps in and the next man to speak is a professor at the University.
Because the dispute seems to center around the education, here I simply have some statics. I'd like to read it and please help me if I am wrong. In old Lhasa only a few people could afford medical care and there were only half a dozen private schools for children from rich families. 95% of Tibetan were illiterate. Now according to the situation free education is provided. Over 70% of Tibetan kids are able to obtain school in 3000 schools in Tibet. Illiteracy rate has been greatly reduced, dropping in some areas to 40%. Now are this statistics wrong or correct?
WESTERN MARCHER: Excuse me, where are your statistics from?
I picked them from this one (holds out the paper)
WESTERN WALKER: What is the source?
I do not know the source.
As far as I know, the life expectancy of Tibetan people after they were taken over has risen from 30 years of 65 and the population has grown from 1 million to 2 million, and we can argue many things but my major concern is about Tibetan independence if it becomes reality. My concern is that this is of no benefit to them because it is such a repressive religious country. It's too medieval. Everything selected by like a pope. There is no real freedom.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'd like to ask a question to the members of the audience that oppose Tibetan freedom. Why is it that some of you are so vehemently against the freedom of Tibet and also do you acknowledge that human rights violations exists or you don't acknowledge it and just condone it?
CHINESE STUDENT: I think that basic human rights is to make people alike. Before liberation, you can check this on the web, the birth rate and death rate from 1949 compared to 1989, these are basic human rights.
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PO Box 194 Fishers, Indiana 46038-0194 United States
e-mail: rangzen@aol.com
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